How does the Governing Body determine if the spirits that are guiding them are from Russell and other past WT Presidents, or if they are really malevolent spirits in disguise?
Sea Breeze
JoinedPosts by Sea Breeze
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Who Directs the Activitie$ and Doctrines of the Hovering Body?
by Sea Breeze injehovah’s witnesses boast that theirs is a “spirit-directed organization”.. see w88 3/1 pp.
10-17 (my life in jehovah’s spirit-directed organization).
they believe that their deceased founder, charles taze russell (who faced legal action by his wife for inappropriate behavior in his maids bedroom), is directing the modern-day work of jehovah’s witnesses.. after the founder, c t russell died, it was stated that he was still directing the work from heaven.. "though pastor russell has passed beyond the veil, he is still managing every feature of the harvest work.
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Theocratic Warfare and Taqiyya
by aqwsed12345 inthe concept of strategic deception exists in several religious and ideological contexts.
in this article, we will explore and compare the theocratic warfare doctrine of the watchtower society and taqiyya in islam.
both concepts have parallels in their mechanisms of permitting deception for religious purposes but differ significantly in their application and historical roots.. 1. theocratic warfare: the "rahab method".
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Sea Breeze
Donations to Watchtower are buried as "expenses".
So they make a "cost" based on what such a facility might cost of they didn't own it?
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Is Jesus the Creator?
by Sea Breeze inthat's what the word says.
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colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..
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Sea Breeze
The most basic example of this paradox is Jesus (the word) himself saying, ' the father is greater than I'. Then you have John, who says, 'the word was god'.
What about the quote from jesus at Matt 24:36? 'No one knows the day or hour but the father'? How can anyone possibly read that verse and decide it means that jesus = god, without serious mental gymnastics?Joey,
It is an unnecessary (and unbiblical) stipulation to overlay a Materialistic view of the nature of man on scripture, and then claim there is some sort of parodox. This is what you, and JW's in general are unwilling to give up:
Materialism is a form of philosophical monism which holds that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all things, including mental states and consciousness... According to philosophical materialism, mind and consciousness are caused by physical processes, such as the neurochemistry of the human brain and nervous system, without which they cannot exist. - Wikipedia
Jesus sometimes speaks from his human nature, and at other times speakes from his omnipotent nature as God, because he has both natures. I believe the problem that you are having understanding this chart is not because it is complicated. It is because of its implications. If we are constructed as body-soul-spirit, and each one is characterized as your person (You) in scripture, then it immediately begs the question: Where will I spend conscious eternity after the demise of my body?
This is the glaring stupendous reality that the depraved sub-conscious mind wants to suppress and bury at all costs. It is not much different than Adam and Eve hiding from God in the garden. For the JW, atheist, secularist, the ultimate object of their desire is for there to be nothing when they die. That belief is their greatest comfort and it is a false hope and a lie. It is a lie eagerly accepted, even demanded.
The suppression of our nature, as explained in scripture, is what is standing in the way of understanding the nature of Jesus, not a "parodox" that arises when materialism is superimposed on scripture.
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Is Jesus the Creator?
by Sea Breeze inthat's what the word says.
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colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..
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Sea Breeze
I will cut you some slack because you are neither Jewish nor went to Hebrew school nor have studied in Israel (or perhaps been).
@ Kaleb:
When my wife gets a little overly critical of me, like every wise and successful man, I've learned certain disarming come-backs that bypasses arguments and fosters the possibility of humor. I will now offer you one of my favorite lines that gets a smile most every time from her: "Please excuse my ignorance". (delivered in perfect grade-school level Appalacian dialect)
I couldn't help but notice that you describe yourself as knowledgeable in Rabinic Judaism, and I do appreciate your insights in that regard. But, I have never heard you mention much about The Essene community responsible for the thousands of dead sea scrolls. Surely a group responsible for that kind of library, theology and community deserves to be looked at?
I think that Christians in general are fairly dismissive of Pharisaical style interpretations because of the strong denunciations levied at them from a man who walked out of a tomb, the Author and Finisher of our faith. After all, we Christians have decided to trust our eternity in his hands, so we are naturally sensitive to his viewpoints. While Jesus warned mankind to be wary of the leaven of the Pharisees and Saducees (Mt. 6: 16), there is not a similar recorded denunciation of the Essenes by him. I find that omission interesting.
From what I understand, The Essenes were very critical of the Pharisees method of OT interpretation, using their oral traditions formulated in their elders meetings to interpret scripture. Christians, later agreed with this view and accused Talmudic views as instrumental in blinding adherents to Messaniac realities found in the OT.
By contrast, according to Johnson, the Essenes seemed to have stuck to ancient testimonies of well regarded figures in Israel's past to serve as an interpretave lens in which to interpret OT scripture, especially prophecy. Some of these works were regarded to be Medieval forgeries faked by Christians because it was inconceivable to scholars that ancient B. C. works by Jews could contain theology so closely aligned to Christian themes, like grace, atonement, God manifesting in the flesh etc. When fragments showed up in the Dead Sea scrolls, dated to before Christ, they were more diffficult to dismiss as Christian forgeries. At any rate, the messanic characterizations between the two groups were very far apart.
Your views on how Christianity began to have a new era of prophets with the advent of Christian faith is not supported in New Testament scripture. Hebrews 1 places prophets as a convention of the past, being replaced by God's Son who is over "all things" and "the express image" of God.
True, God did cause some of the apostles to record the New Testament, but this is revealed in Revelation to come from God the Son, described as "the Alpha and Omega"... "the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8) And then, with the death of the apostles, not only was the canon closed, but so was the possiblity of new light (gospel intrepretation) from any future so-called prophet. (cf.Gal. 1:8-9)
Christians today do not look to prophets, but to The Word (Jesus - "The Spirit of Prophecy") as mankind's complete revelation of God to man, and final authority.
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New here
by AdamCzarnobay ini left the organization in 2017.. was in several congregations in the north west of england.
i just wanted to say thank you to all of you that have posted on here over the years, it really helped me to see the truth about the organization.
i lurked here for many years under an anonymous login and then finally plucked up the courage to write my disassociation letter.. adam.
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Sea Breeze
Good for you Adam. Looking forward to hearing about your next stop on your freedom train.
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408
Is Jesus the Creator?
by Sea Breeze inthat's what the word says.
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colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..
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Sea Breeze
Why dont Jews believe in a trinity?
Many do. When we think of Jews today, we are really thinking of Pharisees, not Jews who become Christians. Jews that become Christians, are still Jews, just as Jesus is still a Jew. Today, hundreds of thousands of Jews believe in the Trinity. They are Messanic Jews or Jewish Christians. In the first century, there were a lot of Jews of this persuasion as well.
Most people don't realize that there were around 15,000 scrolls and fragments found in Judean caves in the mid-20th century presumabley saved by the "sons of light" - The Essenes . These are commonly refrerred to as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Most remain privatelty held and unpublished. Dr. Ken Johnson has been collecting copies of as many as he can and has published a number of his findings in several books. He has even reconstructed the Essene solar callendar. The Essenes claim this was the original callendar used by Adam and that the apostate Jews (Pharisees) adopted a lunar callendar after the Babylonian captivity.
According to Dr. Ken Johnson the Jews today represent what was left of the Pharisees, the dominant group around the time of Jesus. He claims that the prophetic theology of another Jewish sect - the Essenes was essentially the same as new testament theology.
Essene Prophecies - The following list was developed from videos by Dr. Ken Johnson (biblefacts.org) about his discoveries in translating the Dead Sea Scrolls.
1. They prophesied that the Messiah would come to earth and somehow reconcile humanity back to God.
2. They prophesied that the Messiah would be born of a virgin and that he would be God incarnate (God and man) - not just a man and not an angel.
3. They prophesied that the name of the Messiah would be Yeshua (the Hebrew name given to Jesus). When Jesus was born, 1 out of every 5 Jewish boys was named Yeshua (which means Salvation). The number of boys given this name shows the popularity of the Essene’s beliefs. The people were looking for the Messiah to be born.
4.They prophesied that the Jews would completely abandon the original, solar calendar (which God ordained) for the pagan, lunar calendar. This happened after the Babylonian captivity.
5.They prophesied that the Pharisees would leave the true faith before the birth of the Messiah.
6. They prophesied that the Messiah would ‘come’ (or be made known) 1 shemitah, after the 9th Jubilee of their Age (which was around the year 3925 (on their calendar) and was around the year 32 AD (give or take a year). This was also the approximate time prophesied by Daniel’s 70th week and is how the Wise Men knew they had seen the Messiah’s star.
7. They prophesied that the Messiah would be born 70 generations after Enoch. The genealogy of Jesus is documented in Luke, Chapter 3 and show that Jesus was born 70 generations after Enoch.
8. They prophesied that someone from their ‘order’ (their school of prophets) would be the ‘voice crying in the wilderness’ (Isaiah 40). This was John the Baptist and Dr. Ken Johnson says they are 90% sure that John the Baptist was an Essene and that he helped to run the ‘School of the Prophets’.
9. The location where John the Baptist preached was only 8 miles from Qumran, where the Essenes lived (near the Dead Sea).
10. They prophesied that the Messiah would die but then be resurrected (which is why they believed in a bodily resurrection).
11. They prophesied that the Teacher of Lies (the false high priest) would put the Messiah to death and then lie about the resurrection.
12. They prophesied that the Messiah would come two times; the first time to die for our sins (32 AD) and the second time to set up his earthly reign. The Essenes had a prophecy about a ‘Benjaminite’ who would appear after the Messiah came and he would explain the scriptures and how they relate to the Messiah. Paul wrote in Phillipians 3:5 that he was from the tribe of Benjamin - to show that he fulfilled this Essene prophecy, which Paul apparently knew about.
13. For more information concerning the Essenes, I recommend Dr. Ken Johnson; his website is http://biblefacts.org and his YouTube channel is called ‘Ken Johnson’. Dr. Johnson is one of the few people in the world who has copies of the Dead Sea Scrolls and he is in the process of translating these scrolls into English. Above list by N. G. Carraway - www.ngcarraway.com.
If all this is true, it would certainly explain why the Essenes disappeared from history after the Resurrection. Since much of their theology was essentially new testament, when Jesus resurrected himself from the dead, they were ready for it. They probably reasoned en masse that nothing closer to their views would be closer than Jesus; and they simply became Christians. It would account for some of the mass Christian baptisms listed in ACTS of the Apostles where 3000 men were baptised as Christians as well as women and children.
Today, there are hundreds of thousands of Jewish people who believe Christ is the Lord and died for them personally to provide a blood covering for their sin.
The Armstrong Institute of Biblical archeology has this to say about one of the Dead Sea Scrolls found in Cave 11, officialy named 11QMelchizedek:
Analysis
It’s quite astonishing how closely this first-century b.c.e. document aligns with the first-century c.e. New Testament assessment of Melchizedek. This is aptly summed up in The Dead Sea Scrolls: A New Translation (1996):
The author [of 11QMelch] … understands the jubilee year remission of debts as referring not merely to prosaic matters of money, but to the forgiveness of sin. The author declares that the agent of this salvation is to be none other than Melchizedek, a mysterious figure mentioned only twice in the [Hebrew] Bible, in Genesis 14 and Psalm 110. For our author Melchizedek is an enormously exalted divine being, to whom are applied names that are generally reserved for God alone, the Hebrew names El and Elohim. In the author’s citation of Isaiah 61:2, which speaks of ‘the year of the Lord’s favor,’ ‘Melchizedek’ is substituted even for the most holy name of Israel’s God, Yahweh. Yet more remarkably, Melchizedek is said to atone for the sins of the righteous and to execute judgment upon the wicked—actions usually associated with God himself. By the power of Melchizedek, dominion on earth shall pass from Satan (here called Belial) to the righteous Sons of Light. …
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Is Jesus the Creator?
by Sea Breeze inthat's what the word says.
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colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..
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Sea Breeze
I am always astonished how some people feel that a 'belief' that was agreed upon by men nearly 2000 years ago is the best we could come up with and it doesnt need any clarifications and to question it today indicates gross heresy.
Joey,
Here's why it is important to get the right Jesus.
In his book “Stealing Your Life”, Frank W. Abagnale (who is widely regarded as the most successful con artist and impersonator who ever lived) elaborates on his swindles. Hollywood produced a very successful movie about his criminal career in "Catch Me If You Can".
The former police chief of Houston once said of me: “Frank Abagnale could write a check on toilet paper, drawn on the Confederate States Treasury, sign it ‘U.R. Hooked’ and cash it at any bank in town, using a Hong Kong driver’s license for identification.” (book “Catch Me If You Can”, page 91)
Checks, like contracts and other documents require authentic signatures from the actual parties to the transaction. If it is later found out that the actual person named in the agreement wasn't the one who signed or agreed, then the agreement is nullified.
This is why when believers accept the New Covenant "for the forgiveness of sins" as offered in Mt. 26: 27-28, they need to make sure they are entering into an agreement with the right Jesus, and not an impostor.
In other words, some JW's and Mormons claim a covenant relationship with Jesus, but they think he is an angel. JW's deny the Resurrection by teaching that his body was turned into gasses and was recreated to be only temporarily physical. That's a different Jesus too.
They make a deal with the "wrong Jesus", an invention of heretics, an impostor. And hence, their contract is invalid. Jesus will one day tell many people who point to their works as evidence for a fully ratified contract for the forgiveness of sins, "I never knew you". In other words, "I never had such agreement with you".
I wasn't fully on board with the Trinity when I got saved. Heck, I used to argue the JW side with Baptist pastors at the doors, as a regular pioneer. My indoctrination was deep.
But, I was careful not to deny it either. I just shelved the issue for later consideration. I entered into an agreement with he who said, "All power has been given me in heaven and earth". I got saved, (accepted) and experienced rather dramatic changes and displays of God's power for the next 2-3 weeks.
Within 2 months, the Holy Spirit dealt with me one morning around 3 am while reading the bible, and I knew that Father Son and Holy Spirit are just one God.
But, the Father and Holy Spirit are different in that only The Son is forever merged with the son of a peasant girl Mary, Jesus.
When God forever implanted the person of the Trinity - "The Son" into Jesus son of Mary, he met the biblical definition of a "Man", since according to scripture men are made up of three personages Spirit, Soul & Body. Jesus has all three, and so is a man.
But unlike the spirit that we all posess, The Spirit that Jesus posesses is the same indivisible, omnipotent essence of God - "God is a Spirit". This was a one-time event. This is how Jesus is referred to as the only-begotten Son and only-betotten God in scripture. Jesus wasn't created like angels were, he was begotten. Just as my sons are begotten by posessing my essence (half my DNA) with them, Jesus was begotten by posessing the essence of God. And since the nature of God is indivisible (Hear O Israel the Lord our God is One), he is also fully God.
When Jesus was saying that he is FROM his father, he meant it in the fullest possible meaning of the word, not just a location; as if he was sayng he is from the same location of God. God is omnipresent, so that doesn't make sense. He was saying that he is literally from (begotten) from God, out of his essense, not created.
This is why Jesus could say He and the Father are one. The chart above perfectly explains "problematic" verses by recognizing the fact that sometimes Jesus spoke as God, and sometimes as a Man, our kinsman redeemer, since he is uniquely BOTH. Because of Jesus, we are all now related to God - if we want it. Before the Incarnation, we were not related to God, We were described as his enemies because of our sin nature. Mankind was alone in the cosmos, separated from God, with nothing more to look forward to than an eternity of conscious separation from God.
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408
Is Jesus the Creator?
by Sea Breeze inthat's what the word says.
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colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..
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Sea Breeze
@ Ernest
You miss my point. There was no dominant group until the fourth century
I get your point. It's about all we every heard about as JW's But, the evidence doesn't support such a conclusion.
The evidence supports a seamless uninterrupted doctrine of the deity of Christ all the way up until Arius, whose ideas were shot down by other Christian leaders.
Jesus is called God in Jn. 1:1
Jesus is called God manifest in the flesh in 1 Tim. 3: 16
Jesus is called God by Thomas in Jn 20: 28
Jehovah calls Jesus God in Heb. 1: 8
Titus 2: 23 says Jesus is our God and Savior
Col. 2: 9 says Jesus has the fullness of God
After the close of the New Testament Scripture Canon, the apostles trained leaders who taught the same thing as the bible:
Polycarp (AD 69-155) was the bishop at the church in Smyrna. Irenaeus tells us Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle. In his Letter to the Philippians he says,
Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.1
Ignatius (AD 50-117) was the bishop at the church in Antioch and also a disciple of John the Apostle. He wrote a series of letters to various churches on his way to Rome, where he was to be martyred. He writes,
Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her which hath been blessed in greatness through the plentitude of God the Father; which hath been foreordained before the ages to be for ever unto abiding and unchangeable glory, united and elect in a true passion, by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God; even unto the church which is in Ephesus [of Asia], worthy of all felicitation: abundant greeting in Christ Jesus and in blameless joy.2
Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through the blood of God you completed perfectly the task so natural to you.3
There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord.4
For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit.5
Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life.6
For our God Jesus Christ is more visible now that he is in the Father.7
I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise, for I observed that you are established in an unshakable faith, having been nailed, as it were, to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ.8
Wait expectantly for the one who is above time: the Eternal, the Invisible, who for our sake became visible; the Intangible, the Unsuffering, who for our sake suffered, who for our sake endured in every way.9
Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) was an Christian apologist of the second century.
And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said.10
Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts.11
Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Jesus] is witnessed to by Him [the Father] who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ.12
The Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin....13
For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God.14
Melito of Sardis (died c. AD 180) was the bishop of the church in Sardis.
He that hung up the earth in space was Himself hanged up; He that fixed the heavens was fixed with nails; He that bore up the earth was born up on a tree; the Lord of all was subjected to ignominy in a naked body—God put to death! ... [I]n order that He might not be seen, the luminaries turned away, and the day became darkened—because they slew God, who hung naked on the tree.... This is He who made the heaven and the earth, and in the beginning, together with the Father, fashioned man; who was announced by means of the law and the prophets; who put on a bodily form in the Virgin; who was hanged upon the tree; who was buried in the earth; who rose from the place of the dead, and ascended to the height of heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father.15
Irenaeus of Lyons (AD 130-202) was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, which is now Lyons, France. Irenaeus was born in Smyrna in Asia Minor, where he studied under bishop Polycarp, who in turn had been a disciple of John the Apostle.
For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man.... He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God, coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men;—all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him.16
He received testimony from all that He was very man, and that He was very God, from the Father, from the Spirit, from angels, from the creation itself, from men, from apostate spirits and demons.17
Christ Jesus [is] our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father.18
Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers.19
Carefully, then, has the Holy Ghost pointed out, by what has been said, His birth from a virgin, and His essence, that He is God (for the name Emmanuel indicates this). And He shows that He is a man.... [W]e should not understand that He is a mere man only, nor, on the other hand, from the name Emmanuel, should suspect Him to be God without flesh.20
Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215) was another early church father. He wrote around AD 200. He writes,
This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man—the Author of all blessings to us; by whom we, being taught to live well, are sent on our way to life eternal.... The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends.21
For it was not without divine care that so great a work was accomplished in so brief a space by the Lord, who, though despised as to appearance, was in reality adored, the expiator of sin, the Savior, the clement, the Divine Word, He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe; because He was His Son, and the Word was in God....22
Tertullian (AD 150-225) was an early Christian apologist. He said,
For God alone is without sin; and the only man without sin is Christ, since Christ is also God.23
Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled.... That which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence—in position, not in nature; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth. This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descending into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, is in His birth God and man united.24
Bear always in mind that this is the rule of faith which I profess; by it I testify that the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit are inseparable from each other , and so will you know in what sense this is said. Now, observe, my assertion is that the Father is one, and the Son one, and the Spirit one, and that they are distinct from each other. This statement is taken in a wrong sense by every uneducated as well as every perversely disposed person, as if it predicated a diversity, in such a sense as to imply a separation among the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit. I am, moreover, obliged to say this, when they contend for the identity of the Father and Son and Spirit, that it is not by way of diversity that the Son differs from the Father, but by distribution: it is not by division that He is different, but by distinction; because the Father is not the same as the Son, since they differ one from the other in the mode of their being. For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as He Himself acknowledges: “My Father is greater than I.” In the Psalm His inferiority is described as being “a little lower than the angels.” Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and He who is begotten is another; He, too, who sends is one, and He who is sent is another; and He, again, who makes is one, and He through whom the thing is made is another. Happily the Lord Himself employs this expression of the person of the Paraclete, so as to signify not a division or severance, but a disposition (of mutual relations in the Godhead); for He says, “I will pray the Father, and He shall send you another Comforter...even the Spirit of truth,” thus making the Paraclete distinct from Himself, even as we say that the Son is also distinct from the Father; so that He showed a third degree in the Paraclete, as we believe the second degree is in the Son, by reason of the order observed in the Economy. Besides, does not the very fact that they have the distinct names of Father and Son amount to a declaration that they are distinct in personality?25
As if in this way also one were not All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.26
Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170-235) was a third-century theologian. He was a disciple of Irenaeus, who was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. He writes,
The Logos alone of this God is from God himself; wherefore also the Logos is God, being the substance of God.27
For, lo, the Only-begotten entered, a soul among souls, God the Word with a (human) soul. For His body lay in the tomb, not emptied of divinity; but as, while in Hades, He was in essential being with His Father, so was He also in the body and in Hades. For the Son is not contained in space, just as the Father; and He comprehends all things in Himself.28
For all, the righteous and the unrighteous alike, shall be brought before God the Word.29
Let us believe then, dear brethren, according to the tradition of the apostles, that God the Word came down from heaven, (and entered) into the holy Virgin Mary, in order that, taking the flesh from her, and assuming also a human, by which I mean a rational soul, and becoming thus all that man is with the exception of sin, He might save fallen man, and confer immortality on men who believe on His name.... He now, coming forth into the world, was manifested as God in a body, coming forth too as a perfect man. For it was not in mere appearance or by conversion, but in truth, that He became man. Thus then, too, though demonstrated as God, He does not refuse the conditions proper to Him as man, since He hungers and toils and thirsts in weariness, and flees in fear, and prays in trouble. And He who as God has a sleepless nature, slumbers on a pillow.30
Origen (AD 185-254) was another early Christian theologian. He writes,
Jesus Christ...in the last times, divesting Himself (of His glory), became a man, and was incarnate although God, and while made a man remained the God which He was.31
Seeing God the Father is invisible and inseparable from the Son, the Son is not generated from Him by “prolation,” as some suppose. For if the Son be a “prolation” of the Father (the term “prolation” being used to signify such a generation as that of animals or men usually is), then, of necessity, both He who “prolated” and He who was “prolated” are corporeal. For we do not say, as the heretics suppose, that some part of the substance of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father out of things non-existent, i.e., beyond His own substance, so that there once was a time when He did not exist.... How, then, can it be asserted that there once was a time when He was not the Son? For that is nothing else than to say that there was once a time when He was not the Truth, nor the Wisdom, nor the Life, although in all these He is judged to be the perfect essence of God the Father; for these things cannot be severed from Him, or even be separated from His essence.32
And that you may understand that the omnipotence of Father and Son is one and the same, as God and the Lord are one and the same with the Father, listen to the manner in which John speaks in the Apocalypse: “Thus saith the Lord God, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” For who else was “He which is to come” than Christ? And as no one ought to be offended, seeing God is the Father, that the Savior is also God; so also, since the Father is called omnipotent, no one ought to be offended that the Son of God is also called omnipotent.36
In 325 AD several hundred church Pastors gathered together to look at the heretical teachings of Arius. They took a vote and it was a unanimous vote against Arius with two bishops abstaining. The views of Arius were condemned.
This resulted in the Nicene Creed which was supposed to stop this particular heresy from raising up again. We have already looked at the mosaic (230 AD) which proclaims that Jesus is God. And we have already considered the Alexmenos Graffitti (200 AD) which is a hostile witness affiming Jeus was worshipped as God by this early Chriatian.
The idea that Christianity was some sort of hodgepodge patchwork of belief during this time is not support by the abundance of evidence. Opponents of the traditional view (Jesus is God) cannot point to a source or a place in time where the supposed heresy started. By contrast, we have thousands of pages of the early church leaders who explain various heresies, when they were introduced, and by whom.
The evidence shows a single seemless tradition of solardarity among Christians from the Resurrection to the present day regarding the deity of Christ. -
408
Is Jesus the Creator?
by Sea Breeze inthat's what the word says.
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colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..
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Sea Breeze
Do you think that these many groups considered themselves orthodox
What does that have to do with anything? Why would it matter what heretics think of themselves? The early church elders contended for the faith just as Christians do today. These were men personally trained by the apostles.
We see a perfect unification in Christology from the outset, to the many examples that predate Constatine considered in this thread, as well as professions of faith by Christians on the board.
Because of their vast written record, we know when the heresy arose, and who did it. They name names.
For example, several of the early church leaders mention the Nicolaitans in their writings. Isidore of Seville, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Epiphanius, and Theodoret, linked this group to Deacon Nicolas (Acts 6:5), holding that he was the author of the sect and the heresy thereof.
- Isidore of Seville wrote, “The Nicolaites (Nicolaitans) are so called from Nicolas, deacon of the church of Jerusalem, who, along with Stephen and the others, was ordained by Peter.
- Irenaeus added, “They (Nicolaitans) lead lives of unrestrained indulgence … teaching it is a matter of indifference to practice adultery, and to eat things sacrificed to idols.”
- Victorinus of Pettau held that the error of the Nicolaitans was that they ate things offered to idols.
At the time the Book of Revelation was being written, the Nicolaitans were a formidable force bent on teaching false doctrines in the church and their deeds and doctrines were widespread, leading many astray into apostasy. They were a real problem to the point that they drew the attention of Heaven. In a letter Jesus personally dictated to John to be sent to the church at Pergamos, Jesus rebuked the church for the fault that there were some Christians there who had embraced the false doctrines of the Nicholaitans. In these words Jesus rebuked them,
14 But I have a few things against thee, … 15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. (Re 2:14, Re 2:15)
Confronting heretics and rebuking them is a honored tradiion in Christianity because heretics will always be with us until Christ returns.
Here's a couple examples that are more in line with the topic of this thread.
Polycarp (AD 69-155) was the bishop at the church in Smyrna. Irenaeus tells us Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle. In his Letter to the Philippians he says,
Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.
Ignatius (AD 50-117) was the bishop at the church in Antioch and also a disciple of John the Apostle. He wrote a series of letters to various churches on his way to Rome, where he was to be martyred. He writes,
Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her which hath been blessed in greatness through the plentitude of God the Father; which hath been foreordained before the ages to be for ever unto abiding and unchangeable glory, united and elect in a true passion, by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God; even unto the church which is in Ephesus [of Asia], worthy of all felicitation: abundant greeting in Christ Jesus and in blameless joy.
Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through the blood of God you completed perfectly the task so natural to you.
There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord.
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408
Is Jesus the Creator?
by Sea Breeze inthat's what the word says.
.
colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..
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Sea Breeze
What is keeping you from answering this: Do you have a body, soul (mind, emotion, will), and spirit?
@Duran: Why would you ask me this since I am the one who posted the scriptures that claims this is how we are constructed?
This is simply nonsense. The nature of Christ and his relationship with God was a
matter of contention which split early Christianity into diverse sects
There have always been heretics, malcontents, and cult followers trying to infiltrate Christians since the beginning. They do not, nor have ever represented Christians. The early church elders wrote thousands of pages of information to each other to combat their influence. I own a complete set of their writings - 12 hard-bound volumes.
Why not take the time to read them? Virtually the entire NT bible can be reconstructed from just their writings alone. From it, you can learn how Christians used certain verses that heretics in our day claim are false or misused.One of the things you can learn from their writings is that from the beginning believers received Jesus as God. There is simply no other conclusion to come to after reading their letters to one another.
If we were alive in the first century and we witnessed a man claim he would resurrect himself from the dead, and then after he did that, publically proclaim that he posessed "all power in heaven and earth".... it would be very hard to dismiss.
How can a person dismiss the claims of a person who resurrected himself from the dead... while he was dead?
This is the key feature that "set the woods on fire" with Christianity. It swept across the Roman empire like a Tsunami. It was by far the greatest feat ever witnessed on this planet, and remains so to this very day.
Only the Creator would be able to do this. This is the context that must be considered when examining statements about Jesus' divinity. Jesus is either God, or a liar. But, he cannot be both. Each person must decide which side they are on.